Some issues and suggestions

[norgepaul]

Hi,

We just bought InstallAware studio. I have a problem and a few comments:

Problem:

Many of the applications that we install (via features) share the same libraries. We need the appropriate libraries to be installed depending on the features that the user selects. I tried to do this in the following way:

1) Go to the "Files" page
2) Select a "Feature" and check the "Filter files by feature" check box.
3) Click the "Scan" button
4) Select the application exe that is installed for the selected feature.
5) Wait for the application to run then click ok

The library files (in this case Delphi bpls) are added to the application's bin directory. Great. Well, not really, for a number of reasons:

a) When I now select another "feature", click on "Scan" and select the feature's exe, only the library files that were not added for the original feature are added to the script. This means that if I install the second feature without installing the first many of the required library files will be missing.
b) Each time I upgrade our third party components or a version of Delphi, many of the library file names change. This means that I have to go through the whole process of scanning each file again (assuming that this functionality actually works). In InnoSetup I can simply add a pre generated list of library files then copy the names of the components that use them into the script editor. Is something like this possible in InstallAware?
c) If I select a folder and uncheck "Filter files by feature" I see a list of files, but not the features that they are attached to. This means that there can be several identical entries in the file list (assuming some files are installed under several different features) with no way of telling which feature they are attached to. This is particularly infuriating when I need to delete some files but can't tell which ones I'm really getting rid of.

Is there a way of selecting files and saying "these files belong to all these features"? It would make life much easier.

Features:

1) Where is undo? It does not seem to appear anywhere in the application.
2) An ability to edit the script without having to double click for a dialog or drag and drop.
3) When returning to pages such as "Files" after re-opening a project it should default to the last used directory. It is very frustrating having to navigate to the project directory every time.
4) When clicking "Scan" on the "Files" page it should default to the file selected in the file browser.
5) A button that both builds and runs the installer.
6) Personally, I find the "Ribbon" menus very unintuitive (e.g. where is an About menu item?) . It would be nice to be able to have an option do display standard menus instead.

Cheers,
Paul Thornton
Helion Studios AS

[norgepaul]

Sorry, but a couple more things...

- Can I switch off the sound effects? If not, can you add it as a feature request?
- Can the build log remain visible even if the build is successful?

Cheers,
Paul

[MichaelNesmith]

- Can I switch off the sound effects? If not, can you add it as a feature request?

Yes, but you have to manually delete the sound files in the application folder

- Can the build log remain visible even if the build is successful?

No, not currently supported (although in a command line build, of course, this is possible).

[MichaelNesmith]

a) When I now select another "feature", click on "Scan" and select the feature's exe, only the library files that were not added for the original feature are added to the script. This means that if I install the second feature without installing the first many of the required library files will be missing.

The design views are meant as a visual aid. You can switch to the MSIcode view and fine tune your setup behavior. You cannot do everything visually no matter which tool you use, and with InstallAware the advantage you get is that the visual designers emit MSIcode, which you can fully customize (instead of re-doing everything in code by hand).

b) Each time I upgrade our third party components or a version of Delphi, many of the library file names change. This means that I have to go through the whole process of scanning each file again (assuming that this functionality actually works). In InnoSetup I can simply add a pre generated list of library files then copy the names of the components that use them into the script editor. Is something like this possible in InstallAware?

You can use MSIcode include scripts. You could even define your custom application runtimes - we have a whitepaper on how to do that.

c) If I select a folder and uncheck "Filter files by feature" I see a list of files, but not the features that they are attached to. This means that there can be several identical entries in the file list (assuming some files are installed under several different features) with no way of telling which feature they are attached to. This is particularly infuriating when I need to delete some files but can't tell which ones I'm really getting rid of.

Well, then why are you unchecking filter files by feature? You're defeating the whole purpose of that check-box by using it in this manner.

Is there a way of selecting files and saying "these files belong to all these features"? It would make life much easier.

What you are talking about is probably a sub-feature that is automatically selected when other features are selected. You can do this in MSIcode.

1) Where is undo? It does not seem to appear anywhere in the application.

Sorry, not available right now.

2) An ability to edit the script without having to double click for a dialog or drag and drop.

Just use the keyboard. Press F1 on the script editor to find out how to use the keyboard.

3) When returning to pages such as "Files" after re-opening a project it should default to the last used directory. It is very frustrating having to navigate to the project directory every time.

Sorry about that!

4) When clicking "Scan" on the "Files" page it should default to the file selected in the file browser.

Nice suggestion.

5) A button that both builds and runs the installer.

You may want to run without rebuilding in certain cases. This is why they're separate.

6) Personally, I find the "Ribbon" menus very unintuitive (e.g. where is an About menu item?) . It would be nice to be able to have an option do display standard menus instead.

Actually, according to our usability tests, ribbon menus expose more of the core product functionality! But maybe we can make the old menus an option.

[norgepaul]

Quote:
a) When I now select another "feature", click on "Scan" and select the feature's exe, only the library files that were not added for the original feature are added to the script. This means that if I install the second feature without installing the first many of the required library files will be missing.

The design views are meant as a visual aid. You can switch to the MSIcode view and fine tune your setup behavior. You cannot do everything visually no matter which tool you use, and with InstallAware the advantage you get is that the visual designers emit MSIcode, which you can fully customize (instead of re-doing everything in code by hand).

Of course everything can be done in MSICode, but I don't see how this isn't a bug. If I scan a file for the libraries it depends on they should be added to the script even if they have already been added for a different executable. We use libraries because they can be used by several different applications at the same time.

Quote:
b) Each time I upgrade our third party components or a version of Delphi, many of the library file names change. This means that I have to go through the whole process of scanning each file again (assuming that this functionality actually works). In InnoSetup I can simply add a pre generated list of library files then copy the names of the components that use them into the script editor. Is something like this possible in InstallAware?


You can use MSIcode include scripts. You could even define your custom application runtimes - we have a whitepaper on how to do that.

I'll take a look, thanks.

Quote:
c) If I select a folder and uncheck "Filter files by feature" I see a list of files, but not the features that they are attached to. This means that there can be several identical entries in the file list (assuming some files are installed under several different features) with no way of telling which feature they are attached to. This is particularly infuriating when I need to delete some files but can't tell which ones I'm really getting rid of.

Well, then why are you unchecking filter files by feature? You're defeating the whole purpose of that check-box by using it in this manner.

Because it would have been more convenient. I wanted to remove files from several different features at the same time.

Quote:
Is there a way of selecting files and saying "these files belong to all these features"? It would make life much easier.


What you are talking about is probably a sub-feature that is automatically selected when other features are selected. You can do this in MSIcode.

No, this is not the case. In InnoSetup if you click on a file and select properties you are presented with a dialog box. This dialog contains a tab called "Component". The component tab lists all the components (features in InstallAware speak) under which the file will be installed. This is basically what I would like to see. A method of selecting a file (or files) then switching them on or off for each of the available features. As, in effect, you do this for one file with the filter, would it not be possible to do it for many at the same time?

Also, when I design a list view I feel that all the information required to differentiate items should be available to the user. This is not the case in InstallAware when a single file has been added to several features. Can you add a "Feature" column to the list view?

Quote:
1) Where is undo? It does not seem to appear anywhere in the application.


Sorry, not available right now.

Can you give me any idea if/when this feature will be available?

[quote]Quote:
2) An ability to edit the script without having to double click for a dialog or drag and drop.

[norgepaul]

Seems like the last part of the post got screwed up... here it is again...

Quote:
2) An ability to edit the script without having to double click for a dialog or drag and drop.


Just use the keyboard. Press F1 on the script editor to find out how to use the keyboard.

I actually tried this. I wanted to change a couple of characters so I started typing and the entire line disappeared. I would expect that there should be a way to start editing the line with the current text as a starting point. The current method seems very counter intuitive.

Quote:
3) When returning to pages such as "Files" after re-opening a project it should default to the last used directory. It is very frustrating having to navigate to the project directory every time.


Sorry about that!

Will this be added as a feature?

Quote:
4) When clicking "Scan" on the "Files" page it should default to the file selected in the file browser.


Nice suggestion.

Quote:
5) A button that both builds and runs the installer.


You may want to run without rebuilding in certain cases. This is why they're separate.

In my experience I find that I am much more likely to build and run that just build or just run. Would it not be possible to add a new build and run button?

Quote:
6) Personally, I find the "Ribbon" menus very unintuitive (e.g. where is an About menu item?) . It would be nice to be able to have an option do display standard menus instead.


Actually, according to our usability tests, ribbon menus expose more of the core product functionality! But maybe we can make the old menus an option.

Great.

So far I have found that it has some very nice features, but that there are a lot of restrictions placed on what is possible to do without jumping in to the script. If the script was easier to edit it would make life a lot more pleasant, but as it is I find it very clumsy and frustrating. Sorry

There are also several annoying little omissions/bugs that could easily be fixed e.g.

1) When editing a dialog:
a) If I edit a property then switch back to the form without changing properties or pressing enter the property value is reverted to it's former value.
b) If I switch the focus to the form designer from the property editor (or any other window) the first click simply focuses the form. It does not focus the component that was clicked on. This is annoying as it requires two clicks which can often be interpreted as a double click therefore launching the "characteristics" form.

2) If I open the project manager and dock it it displays a small "close" button. If I click on the close button nothing happens.

Sorry for appearing so negative, but I have just spent quite a bit of money purchasing InstallAware hoping that it would be a big step up from InnoSetup/ISTool. So far, this has not been the case. There are a lot of features I really like, but the annoying problems stop me from getting the most out of the application.

Cheers,
Paul

[MichaelNesmith]

I think you're used to how InnoSetup works, but InstallAware is a different IDE with a different mindset behind it; so you cannot expect things to work the same way.

What we're trying to do is build the product that makes it very easy for setup authoring newbies, especially those who are outside of the Windows Installer world, to have a breeze coming into setup authoring with InstallAware.

You might find our other products like WiXAware more enjoyable to work with if you already have a background in setup authoring tools, and prefer to work with IDE's which work in more conventional (albeit more limited) ways.

[norgepaul]

To round this topic off, can you give me a suggestion on how to overcome my main problem with InstallAware.

- I have several features (not all below a common feature) that require a group of library files. I want to install all the library files if one or more of the selected features requires them.
- I do not want to have to add all the library files to each of the features as the library files often change and adding them to each feature would take forever. Scanning the files would be an option but, as I mentioned in a previous post, I believe there is a bug stopping the same library file being added to more than one feature via a scan.
- I have an application that scans all my executables for their dependencies. The application produces a script that can be customised to fit most install applications I've come across. Unfortunately, it seems that I cannot simply paste text into Install Aware as it uses it's own clipboard format.
- Is there a way of simply saying "If features A,B,C and D are selected install Files 1,2,3,4" without having to have the same library files repeated under each feature?

How do I go about getting the result I need from InstallAware?

Cheers,
Paul

[MLS]

6) Personally, I find the "Ribbon" menus very unintuitive (e.g. where is an About menu item?) . It would be nice to be able to have an option do display standard menus instead.

Actually, according to our usability tests, ribbon menus expose more of the core product functionality! But maybe we can make the old menus an option.

I am holding off upgrading as long as possible as I don't like the ribbons having an option to turn off would be nice

[SteveDude]

I wasn't real thrilled with the ribbon bar at first, but it is starting to grow on me. When you hide it or show it, it needs a little bit of cleanup as things jump around a bit.

Undo...that is a biggie and would really like to see that happen sometime down the road. As an old Wise user I got use to not having it, but that would be a godsend.

I would also like to see a build and run option, but would like it expanded upon. Really would like a debug mode that would run without actually doing an install without commenting out the Apply whatevers. What might suffiice is a pre-build(pre-flight) validation check.

Also would like to have the option of saving the build steps to a text file.

The other biggie for me is changing the default build folder.

...as far as holding out to upgrade because of the ribbon bar, think you're missing out on a few other benifits of the upgrade.

[StefanB]

A Undo feature in the code editor really would be a great improvement!!

the way the scripteditor is meant to be used, its really easy to mess something up. then only way to get back is to reload the script, and do all your unsaved work again.

I always thought this comes with next version, cause its really a basic editor feature. Havent many customers requested this?

[norgepaul]

After using InstallAware for a few days now I really don't know how users with big scripts manage (CodeGear?). I have already lost large chunks of code simply because I have been unable to undo a delete.

As far as I can tell it should not be very difficult to add an undo feature. In it's simplest form you could just make a copy of the script in memory each time the script is changed then revert to that script if undo is invoked. However, having looked at what is actually copied to the clipboard this may not be a very feasible method. It seems that there is a lot more going on than is represented by the script text (This is another gripe I have with the text editor; the fact that many things have to be done via a dialog box with properties and not simply from text). If the script is large, simply storing the whole text will probably consume too much time/memory.

In my humble opinion the script editor needs a pretty decent overhaul e.g.

1) Undo
2) Breakpoints are very difficult to see (red text only). How about a little red dot a la Delphi?
3) When inserting/deleting text the focused line often skips to the wrong position.
4) When editing a line via the keyboard the original text disappears.
5) Double clicking on a '+' to expand a region is unintuitive. A single click should suffice.
6) If I delete or accidentally miss an "end" statement somewhere in the script and try a build I am told "Insufficient End Statements". No line numbers, no hint of where the problem may be. This issue alone has forced me to start from scratch as it was easier to begin with a new script than trawl through the code to find the missing end!

I could go on...

These may seem like small points (except undo) but they add to a growing frustration with editing scripts with InstallAware.

I really hope that the programmer(s) are listening. If you fix the small problems you will have a much more usable product.

Can we have some feedback on if/when the improvements will be made? Perhaps a roadmap would be a good idea?

Cheers,
Paul

[MLS]

Another irritating one is you can't press enter to get a blank line to space you script into more readable chunks

[SteveDude]

Hopefully the IA folks are taking some of this to heart. For us that use this thing on at least a weekly basis the time saving features are worth their weight in gold.

Implementation of many of these valid suggestions would only solidify your user base and increase the loyalty of the users of your product.

[MichaelNesmith]

Another irritating one is you can't press enter to get a blank line to space you script into more readable chunks

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